News Round Up

[DDLand]

It worked well for a park that was clearly as a sub-performer that people weren't going to. I have never been to DCA, even when I visited DL (limited time on my part), so I can't really talk about the quality of the park other than what other people have said.

Would the addition of 3 rides fix DHS or EPCOT? I don't think so. Do they need things for all age groups? Absolutely. As I stated before though, $500 million for 3 rides? Staggering cost for the benefit. DHS needs an infusion of 4-10 attractions for age 2-6, 4-10 for 6-12, and 2-4 for teens/adults (mixture of D and E ticket). That brings DHS up to 20-40 attractions, roughly the same as MK. That would make it a true 1-2 day park. That is what it is going to take to fix DHS.

EPCOT is in a similar situation, although it was never intended to be a ride focused area, but clearly some things have changed. They don't even need to be thrill rides, but make sure every country has some type of attraction and not just restaurants. Some adults enjoy the food aspect (I do), but can't eat at all of them and you need something to do between eating around the world. So again, adding a few attractions (4-6) in the countries starts to fix that problem. Redo UOE so it something other than a break from the heat. Bring back the Wonders of Life Pavilion in some incarnation (some of that was really neat) and update the Imagination pavilion and reopen the upstairs in some form. Some of these "attractions" that are still open have been reduced to a shadow of their former selves. My kids love the Innoventions stuff (especially the fire house and the finance thing) and have no idea that they are learning things. That's what the Imagination upstairs did, explore while learning. That is what is missing from EPCOT in some of these pavilions. MISSION:Space has a great post-show area, but it probably needs to be twice the size and have a more obvious entrance for the people that want to skip the ride.

This is how you start to fix the WDW parks.

I can't even fathom the budget needed for those ideas. Maybe I should accept that it may take more than a year for these upgrades?

Whoa, hold your horses.

That's a lot of attractions. I'm starting to understand why you're upset with the pace of expansion.

Here's an excellent list created by a forum member at WDWmagic:
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/soundstage-1-behind-walls.896216/page-9#post-6565302

20-40 is a lot. I can see maxing out at just over 20 someday. (In a highly theoretical world) Like you say not for the conceivable future.

Here's food for thought. Number of rides (does not include shows. I think that's how we've been counting too):
MK=24
Epcot=9
DHS=5
DAK=9

You're wishlist would nearly push DHS ahead of Magic Kingdom. MK happens to be the most visited Theme Park in the WORLD(not Disney world, like the whole thing) It took more then 40 years to collect all those attractions. Disney doesn't need to do that. What they need is to create a strong draw, and a true companion park to MK.

So with this is in mind let's think of what we're going to get. Rumors right now call for 2 rides in Star Wars and 4 rides in Pixar (some have said 3, but I'm still in denial). So with those rides combined with existing it would boost the roster up to 11. Still smaller then it DCA. That's something that would have to be addressed in time.

However even with this small lineup they'd still have one of the most compelling rosters in Orlando:

E Ticket
Tower of Terror
RNR
Star Tours
TSMM
Star Wars Attraction

D Ticket
Unknown Pixar Attraction (I'm betting this will be an E, but I'm putting it here for @rteetz sake.)
Star Wars Attraction
Great Movie Ride

Other/Kids Attraction
Pixar Place
Pixar Place
Pixar Place

That's actually pretty impressive. Basically what they're doing is the Carsland strategy 2x. If one Carsland isn't enough they're going to build two.

Epcot? Let's not even think about Epcot right now. That's still years away...

We need to make sure we have realistic expectations on this. Wanting 40 attractions may sound awesome, but based on precedent just not possible. Not even (arguably the best park) Disneyland Park has 40 attractions. Not even (the other contender) TDS has that many either.

 

[skier_pete]

Lets put it another way - if the rumored $1 Billion going into DHS is true - they aren't just adding a couple of spinners.

 

[Ismo]

Lets put it another way - if the rumored $1 Billion going into DHS is true - they aren't just adding a couple of spinners.

You'd hope so anyway.

 

[rteetz]

More resort specific is starting to show up

http://www.orlandoparksnews.com/2015/03/new-merchandise-debuts-at-disneys-port.html

 

[rteetz]

Winged encounters will be relocating

http://www.orlandoparksnews.com/2015/03/animal-kingdom-winged-encounters.html

 

[George4]

If you look at the low end of the numbers I provided, DHS barely gets to 20 attractions. I would agree that this is a reasonable number, with 40 being my dream number. That being said, I was also including shows in my counts, so if you take shows out, I am willing to concede that the number should be reduced by about 1/3. Also, MK has only about 5 attractions that weren't there as part of the initial 5 yr. build or as a replacement for one of those rides. I think those would include TMRR, SM, SDMT, Ariel, and Haunted Mansion. I think everything else was there or replaced something else. That isn't a huge net gain over 40 years.

I completely understand that my thoughts aren't realistic in any short-term scenario, but there need to be some progress. If you are going to give me a few "lands", that is fine. Just make them more than a bunch of carnival rides dressed up as Disney. I mentioned somewhere else, Dumbo would never be installed now as a "new" ride, but it has a history at Disney so it is still there. If they put in 3-4 rides like that, plus a d- and e- ticket ride, then I would be fine with that as a start. Just putting in 2-3 spinners (which is the current rumor that I have heard) isn't really fixing much of the problem. Yes, it adds capacity for younger kids (which is desperately needed), but not enough to make a major dent in the capacity problem and half-day park problem.

If the rumors you are quoting for DHS are true, then it will definitely be a start and I will absolutely be placated. However, I love Disney but still have a growing distaste for their approach to their parks. I have been going to WDW since about 1975 and have watched some things grow and evolve, and other things shrink and devolve. I take great issue with the shrinking and devolving, especially as overall park attendance continues to increase almost every year. Not that I want Disney to be like Universal (different audience and different draw), but DHS has greater attendance by about 2 million people (20%) and has 5 rides vs. Universal's IOA with 13 rides and 4 play areas...and growing each year or two. I like to see some improvement over time, and that just isn't what I see on a yearly basis.

Again, just MHO

 

[rteetz]

New tomorrowland trailer

http://www.insidethemagic.net/video...ailer-reveals-much-more-story-space-mountain/

This is one movie I am excited for

 

[George4]

Following up on that thought, I tend to take a long-term view of problems/challenges (not always typical in business). If you look at WDW being a destination vacation for 7 days, you have to ask how people spend those days. If, for the sake of the argument, we say:
MK - 2 days
DHS - 1 day
AK - 1 day
EPCOT - 1 day
Typhoon/Blizzard - 1 day
hotel - 1/2 day
DD - 1/2 day

Except, most people struggle to spend an entire day at DHS and EPCOT, so if we change them to half day parks. Now, we are a day short, and have reasonably seen everything that WDW has to offer in terms of big destinations (casual fans don't seem to know about all of the other stuff to do there). What is my motivation to come back next year and the year after? Their goal should be that you can't do everything in one week. If you set the goal of saying there are 9-10 days of activities at the parks, now you have a reason for people to come back year after year, and your parks are big enough that the crowds don't completely drive you away because there is something for everyone to do other than stand in a line for an hour. Look at the kids rides, some of the longest in any of the parks (except TSMM and Soarin). I look at a ride like POTC and see a solution. It is not a major thrill ride, but everyone enjoys the experience and there are 1 or 2 little thrills along the way, and it is one of the highest capacity rides in the park. It keeps people moving. SOme of the changes they are talking about with it for the upcoming refurb are rumored to increase capacity to closer to 4,000 people per hour. That is how you solve a capacity problem, have 3 or 4 rides with capacities like that in every park. That solves your capacity problem, it isn't a ridiculous financial undertaking, and it works for people of all ages. Add a few smaller rides for kids and one or two big rides, and you have solved your capacity problem, built the park system into something that can't quite be done in 7 days so you've built anticipation for your next trip, and you give yourself room to always be updating something or refurbing something without really trainwrecking your capacity problem.

Even at $50 million each (from another discussion post), adding 3-4 POTC-like rides isn't even half of the half a billion they are talking about spending (or have spent) at some of these parks. I guess I feel the need to dream big and expect more from Disney.

 

[George4]

New tomorrowland trailer

Holy cow rteetz, lots of news that you are sharing today. I guess it is Disney announcement day!

 

[rteetz]

If anyone is interested I wrote an article for the dis that was put out today

http://www.wdwinfo.com/walt-disney-world/a-teen-and-non-runner-perspective-on-marathon-weekend/

 

[rteetz]

With the grizzly peak upgrades the new soarin 4k projectors debut May 15th. A year ahead of when we in WDW will get it.

 

[luisov]

I'm afraid that those parks are not intended nor designed to hold the same amount of rides as MK. They have a different purpose.

Regarding Condor Flats, I think it looks much better than what it looked like before. It finally looks like an extension of Grizzly Peak.

See this is the fatal flaw in your argument. If Carsland actually did have that rapidly diminishing appeal it should apply to other parts of Disneyland as well. Especially IP based. Indiana Jones, Buzz Lightyear Astroblaster, and various Fantasyland attractions should be abandoned.

They're not.

Disneyland faithful don't move on. That's not what they do. They keep coming back. Over and over. It's because they love the attractions.

Honestly I wish these attractions did have a little more of that diminishing appeal. We'd get more original rides. Alas. That's just not the case.

We're almost there...

I agree. If IPs were as important as people here tend to claim, nobody would care for Splash Mountain, Indiana Jones, Mr. Toad or Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin. All of them really popular attractions. Carsland is no exception.

 

[jcnewton]

You'd hope so anyway.

I definitely wouldn't die of shock if that happened

 

[DDLand]

Following up on that thought, I tend to take a long-term view of problems/challenges (not always typical in business). If you look at WDW being a destination vacation for 7 days, you have to ask how people spend those days. If, for the sake of the argument, we say:
MK - 2 days
DHS - 1 day
AK - 1 day
EPCOT - 1 day
Typhoon/Blizzard - 1 day
hotel - 1/2 day
DD - 1/2 day

Except, most people struggle to spend an entire day at DHS and EPCOT, so if we change them to half day parks. Now, we are a day short, and have reasonably seen everything that WDW has to offer in terms of big destinations (casual fans don't seem to know about all of the other stuff to do there). What is my motivation to come back next year and the year after? Their goal should be that you can't do everything in one week. If you set the goal of saying there are 9-10 days of activities at the parks, now you have a reason for people to come back year after year, and your parks are big enough that the crowds don't completely drive you away because there is something for everyone to do other than stand in a line for an hour. Look at the kids rides, some of the longest in any of the parks (except TSMM and Soarin). I look at a ride like POTC and see a solution. It is not a major thrill ride, but everyone enjoys the experience and there are 1 or 2 little thrills along the way, and it is one of the highest capacity rides in the park. It keeps people moving. SOme of the changes they are talking about with it for the upcoming refurb are rumored to increase capacity to closer to 4,000 people per hour. That is how you solve a capacity problem, have 3 or 4 rides with capacities like that in every park. That solves your capacity problem, it isn't a ridiculous financial undertaking, and it works for people of all ages. Add a few smaller rides for kids and one or two big rides, and you have solved your capacity problem, built the park system into something that can't quite be done in 7 days so you've built anticipation for your next trip, and you give yourself room to always be updating something or refurbing something without really trainwrecking your capacity problem.

Even at $50 million each (from another discussion post), adding 3-4 POTC-like rides isn't even half of the half a billion they are talking about spending (or have spent) at some of these parks. I guess I feel the need to dream big and expect more from Disney.

What's funny is at the same time you're saying capacity is constrained you're also saying it needs help creating a larger draw. Are these parks filled to the brim or are they in immenient decline? They can't be both.

Frankly I think it's somewhere approaching the first at the Magic Kingdom. Operations is starting to get swamped by the near daily onslaught. Things like the Central Plaza Enhancements, New Fantasyland, and the Main Street Overflows are examples of handling these increased crowds.

Thanks to My Magic the moderate rides are more crowded then ever. The biggest Disney Park is also the fastest growing in Orlando. It's a remarkable accomplishment.

Now what's interesting is the other parks are more like the second point. Not quite but almost. These three siblings are glacially growing in line with the competition. The gap is widening between MK and the rest even more. It's not inconceivable that within a couple years MK could have twice the attendance as some of the other WDW Resort Parks. What does this mean? I suspect there's a growing demographic that goes only to Magic Kingdom and is not visiting the other parks. This also means they aren't visiting Downtown Disney and likely aren't staying at the resorts. There's millions of guests that are visiting the Magic Kingdom for a day or two and then leaving. That's money on the table.

Enter the Epcot, Animal Kingdom, and Hollywood Studios expansion plans.

1) Epcot gets Frozen help. This could be a powerful attendance boost. This also has the potential to get Epcot moving in the right direction again. Coupled with the Soarin expansion and upgrade they're hedging that they're going to be handling greater crowd flow. More could be on the way...

2) Animal Kingdom gets a plethora of nighttime additions and Avatar. This is being propelled into a full day park. They want to make sure guests aren't leaving. I'm not sure if we'll see major attendance gains here, but it seems like they're expecting it. With lots of infrastructure improvments happening all over the park they're preparing for millions more each year.

3) Hollywood Studios gets her Star Wars and Pixar improvments. This to me is the most compelling as far as upside goes. This really has the potential to be a fast growing operation and true companion park to MK. I think whereas the others are going to be more about catching guests extending stays at WDW, this one is going to be a true Magic Kingdom like draw. I doubt that Epcot or Animal Kingdom could survive if the rest of the Resort didn't exist. This stands in sharp contrast to Parc Disneyland, Disneyland Park, Tokyo Disneyland, Magic Kingdom, etc. I think by the time this expansion is completed Hollywood Studios will be a true draw like the others I mentioned. Whereas the others I doubt will cannibalize MK this could.


So why would Disney create all these compelling options if they have the potential to cannibalize MK? I think it has to do with the other parks being underutilized and the MK fast approaching too full. MK is going to share some of its draw with the rest of the resort like it always has but to a greater extent.

Making sure there's ride capacity is only half the answer. Making sure all rides are being fully utilized is another. Thanks to My Magic that is increasingly the case. The additions like Toy Story Mania and Soarin as well as the refurbs like Frozen also ensure that Disney is getting the maximum return from each ride with high ridership.

Disney is partially following your lead of expanding capacity and creating draws while also using their operations savvy to ensure the highest ROI.

Instead of just adding more rides they're making sure each ride is more meaningful.


Expect more of those Frozen like changes. It should be an exciting next couple years.


Also Disney Springs seems poised to catch some of the growth and I wouldn't be surprised to see new hotels being announced sometime in the near future. They're leveraging the 800 pound gorilla, and they're going to share the wealth like never before.

Your solution to crowd problems boils down to build more. Disney's is send them somewhere else. I think Disney has got something there...

 

[DDLand]

However, I love Disney but still have a growing distaste for their approach to their parks. I have been going to WDW since about 1975 and have watched some things grow and evolve, and other things shrink and devolve.

Now, we are a day short, and have reasonably seen everything that WDW has to offer in terms of big destinations (casual fans don't seem to know about all of the other stuff to do there). What is my motivation to come back next year and the year after?

This is telling. I think many of the APs at Disneyland can sympathize with your point as well.

There's just one problem. You keep doing it anyway. You and millions of others just keep on going to Disney in the face of price hikes and cost cutting. Why? Because they've got a monopoly on Disney. Nothing is quite like it. People love to praise Universal. It's not Disney. They're the only ones.

I've been lurking on these boards for like 6 years and people have been saying the day of reckoning is coming.

6 years and counting and attendance just keeps on growing (along with profit of course).

I can't answer why people come year after year. It's honestly ridiculous. That makes me ridiculous because I do it too. I remember reading about how the it would be cheaper to fly out to an actual Polynesian Island then spend a night or two in one of those new bungalows. Is that going to stop people? Nope. They'll always be booked.

The Disney Parks community keeps drawing a line in the sand and telling Disney not to cross or we'll leave. Then Disney crosses it. We whine, then we move back a few feet and draw a new line. Disney crosses it, and the cycle repeats. We're just hooked and there's no replacement. They're just getting started.


Note: Disneyland is different. I wouldn't be surprised if they staged a boycott. However it's increasingly becoming the case that the mix of locals to people from out of town is switching more towards the out of town. They're already burning bridges.

 

[rteetz]

What's funny is at the same time you're saying capacity is constrained you're also saying it needs help creating a larger draw. Are these parks filled to the brim or are they in immenient decline? They can't be both.

Frankly I think it's somewhere approaching the first at the Magic Kingdom. Operations is starting to get swamped by the near daily onslaught. Things like the Central Plaza Enhancements, New Fantasyland, and the Main Street Overflows are examples of handling these increased crowds.

Thanks to My Magic the moderate rides are more crowded then ever. The biggest Disney Park is also the fastest growing in Orlando. It's a remarkable accomplishment.

Now what's interesting is the other parks are more like the second point. Not quite but almost. These three siblings are glacially growing in line with the competition. The gap is widening between MK and the rest even more. It's not inconceivable that within a couple years MK could have twice the attendance as some of the other WDW Resort Parks. What does this mean? I suspect there's a growing demographic that goes only to Magic Kingdom and is not visiting the other parks. This also means they aren't visiting Downtown Disney and likely aren't staying at the resorts. There's millions of guests that are visiting the Magic Kingdom for a day or two and then leaving. That's money on the table.

Enter the Epcot, Animal Kingdom, and Hollywood Studios expansion plans.

1) Epcot gets Frozen help. This could be a powerful attendance boost. This also has the potential to get Epcot moving in the right direction again. Coupled with the Soarin expansion and upgrade they're hedging that they're going to be handling greater crowd flow. More could be on the way...

2) Animal Kingdom gets a plethora of nighttime additions and Avatar. This is being propelled into a full day park. They want to make sure guests aren't leaving. I'm not sure if we'll see major attendance gains here, but it seems like they're expecting it. With lots of infrastructure improvments happening all over the park they're preparing for millions more each year.

3) Hollywood Studios gets her Star Wars and Pixar improvments. This to me is the most compelling as far as upside goes. This really has the potential to be a fast growing operation and true companion park to MK. I think whereas the others are going to be more about catching guests extending stays at WDW, this one is going to be a true Magic Kingdom like draw. I doubt that Epcot or Animal Kingdom could survive if the rest of the Resort didn't exist. This stands in sharp contrast to Parc Disneyland, Disneyland Park, Tokyo Disneyland, Magic Kingdom, etc. I think by the time this expansion is completed Hollywood Studios will be a true draw like the others I mentioned. Whereas the others I doubt will cannibalize MK this could.


So why would Disney create all these compelling options if they have the potential to cannibalize MK? I think it has to do with the other parks being underutilized and the MK fast approaching too full. MK is going to share some of its draw with the rest of the resort like it always has but to a greater extent.

Making sure there's ride capacity is only half the answer. Making sure all rides are being fully utilized is another. Thanks to My Magic that is increasingly the case. The additions like Toy Story Mania and Soarin as well as the refurbs like Frozen also ensure that Disney is getting the maximum return from each ride with high ridership.

Disney is partially following your lead of expanding capacity and creating draws while also using their operations savvy to ensure the highest ROI.

Instead of just adding more rides they're making sure each ride is more meaningful.


Expect more of those Frozen like changes. It should be an exciting next couple years.


Also Disney Springs seems poised to catch some of the growth and I wouldn't be surprised to see new hotels being announced sometime in the near future. They're leveraging the 800 pound gorilla, and they're going to share the wealth like never before.

Your solution to crowd problems boils down to build more. Disney's is send them somewhere else. I think Disney has got something there...

I think AK sees an attendance jump because many have not been in that park at night including myself. Also for Disney springs is there any room over there for more hotels? I know the new B resort opened last year. Then you have flamingo crossing hotels going up but that's not near DS.

 

[rteetz]

This is telling. I think many of the APs at Disneyland can sympathize with your point as well.

There's just one problem. You keep doing it anyway. You and millions of others just keep on going to Disney in the face of price hikes and cost cutting. Why? Because they've got a monopoly on Disney. Nothing is quite like it. People love to praise Universal. It's not Disney. They're the only ones.

I've been lurking on these boards for like 6 years and people have been saying the day of reckoning is coming.

6 years and counting and attendance just keeps on growing (along with profit of course).

I can't answer why people come year after year. It's honestly ridiculous. That makes me ridiculous because I do it too. I remember reading about how the it would be cheaper to fly out to an actual Polynesian Island then spend a night or two in one of those new bungalows. Is that going to stop people? Nope. They'll always be booked.

The Disney Parks community keeps drawing a line in the sand and telling Disney not to cross or we'll leave. Then Disney crosses it. We whine, then we move back a few feet and draw a new line. Disney crosses it, and the cycle repeats. We're just hooked and there's no replacement. They're just getting started.


Note: Disneyland is different. I wouldn't be surprised if they staged a boycott. However it's increasingly becoming the case that the mix of locals to people from out of town is switching more towards the out of town. They're already burning bridges.

I think part of the reason they do get record profits every year is because they keep increasing prices. People keep going to Disney parks because it's that once in a lifetime trip. Most kids when they are young go at least once. A lot of people look at me weird when I tell them I've been seven times and can't wait to go back. Normal teenage guys don't want to go to Disney world for a vacation. Kids under 10 sure do and parents want to give that to their kids.

 

[DDLand]

I think AK sees an attendance jump because many have not been in that park at night including myself. Also for Disney springs is there any room over there for more hotels? I know the new B resort opened last year. Then you have flamingo crossing hotels going up but that's not near DS.

That's interesting. Of course there'll be a shorterm pop when it opens, but do you think it will be sustained? That's the really big question. I personally can't wait for those views. The nightime Safari is going to be amazing. (Even if there are no animals the landscape should just be amazing)

Yeah, the Downtown Disney Resort Area is cramped. I wasn't saying necessarily that it would be in that area but just anywhere property wide. We could see the reemergence of Wilderness Junction. There are options. Flamingo crossing is still pretty small, with hotel capacity additions of a couple hundred rooms if I recall. If Disney goes all in think of Art of A and what Universal is doing.

 

[DDLand]

I think part of the reason they do get record profits every year is because they keep increasing prices. People keep going to Disney parks because it's that once in a lifetime trip. Most kids when they are young go at least once. A lot of people look at me weird when I tell them I've been seven times and can't wait to go back. Normal teenage guys don't want to go to Disney world for a vacation. Kids under 10 sure do and parents want to give that to their kids.

No doubt about the profit increases largely due to price changes. Though recently it's beginning to shift back to more attendance growth and hotel occupancy. I think it's notable that MK outgrew the fastest growing Orlando Park in numbers.

I think that's half of the answer. What tells me that it's only partially the answer is DVC resales. If we were really to see the apocalyptic scenarios people have been predicting for years DVC sales would be nothing and resales would be soaring. As far as we know that hasn't happened yet. Also a key ingredient of the doom of WDW is the masses realize that it's a terrible value and stop taking that once in lifetime trip. Thanks to record attendance we know that hasn't happened either. They're doing just fine. Better then I would've expected.

As for the reaction on teenage boys. Yeah, I know that life.

 

[George4]

What's funny is at the same time you're saying capacity is constrained you're also saying it needs help creating a larger draw. Are these parks filled to the brim or are they in immenient decline? They can't be both.

Actually, it is both. You hit on it in the rest of your post. MK is maxed out, and the other parks need to pull some of that away. The rest of your discussion sort of matches my thoughts on the subject.