Current owners: Do you feel that renters are impacting resort availability?

[xdan0920]

I know and it doesn’t bother me, I don’t really care who an owner lets use their room and I don’t think renting is what causes the issues with availability.

It’s too much demand for too few rooms. I bet many would not care how many owners rent SSR rooms because there are always plenty of rooms there to still book.

But, renting SV rooms at BWV upset people because there simply are not enough of them…even if rental of those units were stopped, there would still be many owners who are shut out because many more want them.

And, my comments are not about whether or not a membership is in violation of the commercial clause. The question is whether rentals is what impacts availability and I dont think it does.

Hard to get rooms will be hard to get even without rentals…and, TBH, if the internet didn’t exist to the degree it did for people to advertise rentals, most would have no idea what rooms are being rented and which ones are not.

Do you rent your points?

 

[Sandisw]

Do you rent your points?

I have rented to strangers twice. But other than that, no I don’t.

I have let some friends use my points and if I am not traveling I charge them $7/pt. If I am with them then I gift the room. Other than that, I book for me and my family to use.

Now, I do spec book different rooms for different times since I don’t know who is going and what we might need. So, thst is how I end up with so many reservations at once. I cancel rooms once we know who is actually traveling.

So, my thoughts are not because I am an owner that rents. I simply don’t believe that renting has the major impact that others do in the overall scheme of things. And, am not bothered by what other owners decide to do with their points.

 

[keishashadow]

I simply don’t believe that renting has the major impact that others do in the overall scheme of things.

I’m thinking those who may only be looking at one or two reservations a year, and only at one resort, may feel differently

I’ve heard many members complain they’ve increasingly had difficulty booking their typical annual weeks, when experiencing no issue in the past

I had blamed not being able to consistently secure BWV standard & AKVJ value studios on those with lots of banked Covid points increasing the pool of those vying for reservations. thot things would normalize. Hasn’t happened as far as I can determine

It can be disenheartening to try to book at 11 months and see nothing open that works. Not a rarity, Especially, if it’s a popular time period, resort, category & they don’t walk or stalk. What seems to be gold for spec renters among us.

I have no solution to offer.

Nor do I necessarily care how members utilize their points, as long as it’s in a sanctioned manner

I’ve transferred points to others in the past and gifted reservations too. Guess that equates to me being part of ‘the problem’ people are referencing

My personal response has been to work on adding on points to allow booking the higher category rooms.

 

[Sandisw]

I’m thinking those who may only be looking at one or two reservations a year, and only at one resort, may feel differently

I’ve heard many members complain they’ve increasingly had difficulty booking their typical annual weeks, when experiencing no issue in the past

I had blamed not being able to consistently secure BWV standard & AKVJ value studios on those with lots of banked Covid points increasing the pool of those vying for reservations. thot things would normalize. Hasn’t happened as far as I can determine

It can be disenheartening to try to book at 11 months and see nothing open that works. Not a rarity, Especially, if it’s a popular time period, resort, category & they don’t walk or stalk. What seems to be gold for spec renters among us.

I have no solution to offer.

Nor do I necessarily care how members utilize their points, as long as it’s in a sanctioned manner

I’ve transferred points to others in the past and gifted reservations too. Guess that equates to me being part of ‘the problem’ people are referencing

My personal response has been to work on adding on points to allow booking the higher category rooms.

I don’t disagree that booking has become harder for many things, especially studios.

But, I think there are lot of factors that play a much bigger role in that then renting does.

We can attribute studio difficulty at CCV, especially in the fall to an imbalance in points to number of rooms.

We can attribute trouble with AKV CL because there are a total of 10 rooms so no matter what, those will be hard.

I guess it also comes down to how people may see or define impact. But, like you, I don’t go in expecting the cheapest rooms and work hard to get them if I don’t succeed the first time. If I have to go one less day because I never get it, then it is what it is and I expect that with the way the system works.

 

[keishashadow]

If I have to go one less day because I never get it, then it is what it is and I expect that with the way the system works.

So true, yet embracing that concept appears out of reach for many.

 

[Chuck S]

The mods of a board whose official sponsor is a commercial renting enterprise sure seem to not have a problem with commercial renting.

Let me share what most posters here already know. The Moderators are NOT influenced by this or any other DIS Sponsor. We receive no renumeration or perks of any kind for moderating here. Like many fan based websites, we are volunteers who do this in our spare time for the DIS and DVC community. Our opinions on "Commercial Renting" are our own, garnered over years of experience seeing trends come and go in rentals and limited types of room availability. Holiday weeks have always been difficult to book, even back before the reservation system was online. We had to call in for everything, Member Services was closed on Sundays, and had much shorter hours during the rest of the week than they do currently.

There was so much demand the first couple of years of DVC that there was a lottery for Holiday time frame reservations. Home resort priority was suspended during that timeframe, and you were competing with owners from the other DVC resorts (though there were far fewer) for reservatinos at your home resort, and there were far fewer resorts at that time.If I remember, the was OKW, Vero and Beach Club was the latest. I personally have seen DVC reservation policies change a lot over the last 32 years of ownership. The 11 month window USED to apply on the LAST day of your desired reservation, not the first day. Often Member Services were known to recommend walking a reservation and instruct the owners how to do so, though walking was slightly different when the systen was based on the last day of your reservation. Everyone understood that we may not get exactly the room we want, especially during a high demand timeframe.

If you're saying we should not use a "commercial" website to rent out points, remember that virtually ALL commonly used websites, RedWeek, Tug, ebay, Facebook and so forth, are ALL technically "commercial" for profit websites

If you define any broker site as "Commercial Renting" DVC disagrees, there is nothing in the POS that says we can not engage the services of a broker to aid in renting out points, or offer our points on a website that charges a fee to allow you to post it. They have set the critera and define commercial renting as 20 Reservation per year, on a rolling basis, where the owner of the points is not the priimary. All DVC owners have the ability to rent their points, make reservation, and rent them within those criteria limits.

And brokers certainly have a purpose, as there are owners who really don't want to deal directly with the people they are renting their points and reservations to, and prefer the way the brokers act as "middle men" in the transactions, colecting the funbds from the renter and holding a portion in an escrow account

 

[xdan0920]

Oh really?

The prevailing rates for DVC Point rentals are around $24 each. Want to stay in a Grand Floridian room that costs 20 point...the rental cost is around $480. Certainly much better than Disney prices of $800-1000 per night plus 12% tax.

There's a rental website that currently has AKV Value studios listed for $287 per night. Again, pretty good rate for a Disney Deluxe resort. The thing is, that Value studio costs only 7 points per night. This rental is actually priced at FORTY-ONE dollars per point.

So maybe you're thinking "eh, that's just one member trying to get a rate that nobody will ever pay." The problem is, this same website currently has 228 confirmed reservations available to rent for AKV Value studios.

Let me repeat that. TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY EIGHT RESERVATIONS. For Value Studios. All of them priced substantially higher than $24 per point. The same website has 65 Standard View Jambo Studios available and 3 (yes, 3) Jambo Savanna Studios.

There are only 8 dedicated value studios and 10 lockoffs at AKV. This one website is currently holding 362 room nights across the next 11 months, an average of more than one SV villa per night. They are holding--unrented--6-12% of all value studio availability. And that doesn't even include however many reservations they've already rented for dates between now and March 2025.

The same website also has 103 Standard View BW Studios vs 41 Garden / Pool and 3 BW view. At BLT, 50 standard view studio confirmed reservations available vs 21 lake and 1 theme park. They have 82 Beach Club studio reservations representing 402 room nights. At Riviera, there are 20 reservations for Tower Studios, 59 for Standard View Studios and 5 for preferred studio.

On the few where I did the math, some were $25 per point. Some were $27 per point. Some were $35 per point.

But if you think there aren't people targeting rooms where they can get $35-41 per point, you're being naive. The total asking price for those 228 AKV Value Studios is over $122,000. If we grant that they are renting for a premium of just 20-30%, it's absolutely worthwhile for professional renters to target those rooms. And it's clearly happening.

But, I think there are lot of factors that play a much bigger role in that then renting does.

How do you square this opinion with these facts?

 

[Sandisw]

How do you square this opinion with these facts?

I don’t doubt renting occurs. And I don’t doubt that owners renting now choose rooms that are going to rent well.

I can tell you if I need to rent in the future I will grab rooms that will be in more demand.

But, that doesn’t mean those owners are in violation. Lot of assumptions that they are.

If one thinks having a 2% chance is a meaningful difference than a 1% chance? Then renting impacts.

I personally do not. But as I have said, I don’t care if people rent and I just believe that what you have out there now is a volume of owners who have gotten in to renting out points for a variety of reasons, but not meeting the definition of what DVC defined as renting for a commercial purpose.

I’ll say it again, we have no idea what DVc has reviewed and what they done. And, while many assume all those confirmed regular rolling reservations out there owned by the same owner, they may indeed have it structured across multiple memberships with many many owners who all have decided to rent…see my other posts how my family could easily accomplish it.

Plus, booking 1 and 2 nights at a time certainly appears to be ones that were picked up along the way, not necessarily some 8 am window.

I guess if the question is whether owners who rent now choose high demand targeted rooms, then that practice has increased.

If renting was completely eliminated, would owners who want thise high demand rooms have a lot more success in booking them? My answer remains no.

 

[Sandisw]

It's perfectly fine that you aren't concerned, as an owner, that there are a lot of other owners violating the POS. It bothers me.

I agree with you that more and more owners, including commercial rental entities, have likely purchased points to either solely rent or to rent more often, which is a violation of the POS and detracts from the availability for owners who intend on using their points, oddly enough, for a family vacation.

I had a typo…it should have said a lot of owners out there who are not in violation of the POS..not IN.

And again, in violation is currently set as triggering a review at 20 reservations in a 12 month period and any of those are in the owners name, they don’t count.

 

[Sandisw]

The mods of a board whose official sponsor is a commercial renting enterprise sure seem to not have a problem with commercial renting.

Has nothing to do with the volunteer work I do here. Just like others, my opinions are based on how I view the situation.

 

[Skip Coffee for Rope Drop]

I'm interested in purchasing DVC. I live local and prefer weekend staycations, so don't care much about getting an entire week at any particular resort. I suppose I would fall into the "sleep around points" group.

I've noticed on several Facebook groups, a number of DVC members are renting a (seemingly) bizarre number of confirmed reservations, all for popular weeks (Memorial Day, 4th of July, RunDisney, etc.). Is it possible that they legitimately reserved those weeks, and no longer need the reservation? Sure. But it just seems like many of these DVC owners are "playing" travel agent with their membership and reserving the most popular weeks, with the intention of renting the points. Examples below.

The last thing I want is to be battling with these people for particular dates and stressing over my bookings. So, my question for current DVC owners is whether or not this is a concern for you, or something Disney is aware of and plans on putting an end to.

Mod deleted actual rentals. We do not allow those to be posted.

My daughter and her friends are going for July 4th with her friends. They are out of college now and one of the girl's dad's booked the week and tried to sell it at work. He could not get a good deal so he gave it to his daughter. They are not even going to go to the parks, just Disney Springs and maybe a day at Universal.

 

[tx911]

If renting was completely eliminated

Now there's an interesting thought....

 

[crisi]

How do you square this opinion with these facts?

I'd like to see Disney clamp down on commercial renting, but I thing the effect will actually be pretty minimal. I think they should because I think some of this is a flagrant violation of the "commercial" terms I agreed to - that they agreed to - when I signed my contract. I'm holding up my end of the deal by not violating the contract, they need to hold up their end of the deal by addressing those that do if it even the effects on me are pretty minor. I also want to see them clamp down because I'm a Disney shareholder - and someone undercutting them on their own product is bad business. This isn't the scooter situation - Disney doesn't want to store and maintain enough scooters to meet demand, so rental scooters are a plus for them. Disney does want to sell on property hotel/timeshare nights for cash - they are doing all the labor of maintaining them anyway.

I think things that have made a bigger difference re: availability- point minimums below 150 points - along with point inflation - have made studios that much harder to book across the board. DVC was envisioned as what is more normal in the timeshare world - rooms with kitchens and living rooms and bedrooms. But DVC members really use it as a way to get a deal on a "Deluxe hotel room." The move to five sleeping spaces in a studio hasn't helped that, nor has resort proliferation, which has encouraged a lot of people to get small point add ons - good for studios, not necessarily great for bigger units. BWV being all lockoffs doesn't help, since that means two bedrooms disappear in the rush for studios - a problem at all the resorts with lockoffs, but a big issue at BWV because they are ALL lockoffs. A handful of events that make certain weeks and certain resorts WAY more attractive than other resorts and other weekends - RUN Disney, F&W, the member meeting. Even just selling the resorts with the promise that you can stay at all these other resorts "subject to availability" without saying "yeah, and availability .... it can be really tough." Which given human nature, means a lot of people double down on the sunk cost fallacy once they discover that getting a studio at the BCV so the grandkids can use SAB in the Summer is tough at seven months and buy some points there. Even the advent of online booking - back when I joined you often had a long hold time to make a change to a reservation - that added overhead so a lot more people were a lot more certain about the reservations they did make. Now its pretty easy to say "well we might go in eleven months, lets grab something and we can move it." And its MUCH easier to walk than it was to call day by day with a potential 20 minute wait time back in the day.

 

[Sandisw]

Now there's an interesting thought....

Maybe an idea some would like but its not legally allowed, not only in our POS but FL timeshare law is pretty pro owner when it comes to renting.

If DVD decides to lower the limit to trigger the review, that is okay by me. If they want to look across all memberships, that is fine by me as well to review. But, remember, they do have rules in place that define what "renting for commercial purpose is" and if things are going the way they are, especially if it is hurting their bottome line which some believe it is, then I have to guess that maybe things are being done in a way that is not a true "violation"...at least not with a lot of memberships.

DVC isn't shy about doing things they believe they have the right to do, even if questionable, and we have seen that. Just think that what data they have behind the scenes may indeed be driving why things haven't changed in the way some think they should.

And, we have seen the language tightened up in the POS for the Cabins Resort Use plan....which does now include some specific language about a pattern of rentals, including using third party sites.

 

[tx911]

Maybe an idea some would like but its not legally allowed, not only in our POS but FL timeshare law is pretty pro owner when it comes to renting.

If DVD decides to lower the limit to trigger the review, that is okay by me. If they want to look across all memberships, that is fine by me as well to review. But, remember, they do have rules in place that define what "renting for commercial purpose is" and if things are going the way they are, especially if it is hurting their bottome line which some believe it is, then I have to guess that maybe things are being done in a way that is not a true "violation"...at least not with a lot of memberships.

DVC isn't shy about doing things they believe they have the right to do, even if questionable, and we have seen that. Just think that what data they have behind the scenes may indeed be driving why things haven't changed in the way some think they should.

And, we have seen the language tightened up in the POS for the Cabins Resort Use plan....which does now include some specific language about a pattern of rentals, including using third party sites.

Could they, with the current POS, allow renting to friends and family, or even on a site like this one, but not on 3rd party commercial sites like the ones we know about?

 

[Chuck S]

Could they, with the current POS, allow renting to friends and family, or even on a site like this one, but not on 3rd party commercial sites like the ones we know about?

I really doubt they could move against a website, as such. They would need to move against the DVC owners, as Disney's contract is with the owners, not the website. And it absolutely require proof of meeting the"commercial renting" definitions as set forth by DVC.

Now, if the website somehow violated a copyright, with say, professional photos of resorts and such...but also proving said photos were proseeional and not just taken by an individual on a vacation is also a problem, especially since Disney allows and encourages vloggers in the parks, at D23 and so forth.

 

[Sandisw]

Could they, with the current POS, allow renting to friends and family, or even on a site like this one, but not on 3rd party commercial sites like the ones we know about?

Probably not because if the notion is renting for a commercial purpose, how can one say that if an owners uses a site to rent one or two reservations out is in violation of the “personal use” rights we have.

The contract is between the owner and DVc and not those businesses so it does come down to DVc having to find that the membership…or memberships of a specific owner…amounts to what is a reasonable definition of renting beyond personal use

Now, others will point out that DVC could do what they want and ask questions later, but if they wanted to do that, we would have seen it years ago.

The new language with CFW and the trust…which is why I think this will be used for other projects in the future…tightens things up and could be where DVC starts.

 

[Judique]

So, my thoughts are not because I am an owner that rents. I simply don’t believe that renting has the major impact that others do in the overall scheme of things. And, am not bothered by what other owners decide to do with their points.

Looking at the resorts you own, I can see why the situation doesn't resonate with you as much as it does with owners such as @keishashadow and myself. Something is always available at Riviera, VGF, and Saratoga as well as OKW at 7 months for me. The only room that goes faster is the Tower studio, and I've gotten that at 7 months.

Same for @Chuck S - Old Key West will have availability. It's even possible to snag a grand villa at 7 months as they have more of them. Not that expensive and a great layout.

With all due respect to both of you as Moderators, you are not facing the same challenges at the 11 month window as a Boardwalk owner who wants to have a fair chance to book a vacation for their own use at a resort they've owned for decades.

I’m thinking those who may only be looking at one or two reservations a year, and only at one resort, may feel differently

I’ve heard many members complain they’ve increasingly had difficulty booking their typical annual weeks, when experiencing no issue in the past

I had blamed not being able to consistently secure BWV standard & AKVJ value studios on those with lots of banked Covid points increasing the pool of those vying for reservations. thot things would normalize. Hasn’t happened as far as I can determine

It can be disenheartening to try to book at 11 months and see nothing open that works. Not a rarity, Especially, if it’s a popular time period, resort, category & they don’t walk or stalk. What seems to be gold for spec renters among us.

Many of us feel the same as you. BWV has been a sold out resort for a long time. There are always resales at every resort. What stands out is that getting what was normal has changed in the last 3-5 years, when the appeal of a great location, low point charts and moderate dues became obvious to those that want to make money by renting as opposed to vacationing. With a night as low as 9 points per night and dues of approx $8.67 per point, it's pretty difficult to lose. It's not even speculation. It's a sure thing. The next step is getting the rooms, that's where the bots come in.

In 20 years or less, Riviera will be the 'bargain' with access to two parks. BWV will be in the process of being resold, and it won't be cheap the next time around. The points charts will probably be doubled. Another possibility is that the hotel side become villas as well.

 

[sndral]

I’m not sure that the 20 in 12 is still the benchmark, although the POS was amended 12/31/07 to add language prohibiting 20 rentals in 12 months, that language was subsequently dropped - I don’t know when, but the current POS doesn’t include any numbers & DVC has given itself the ability to define what constitutes ‘commercial.’ There’s been one report on DIS of an email from DVC which stated “we view rentals of DVC over the internet as a pattern of rental activity” https://www.disboards.com/threads/aggressive-anti-rental-email-response-from-ms.3919744/ . Whether that incident was a one off or a hint of things to come . The fact that it was over a year ago & there’s been no reports of any other consequences suggests to me that DVC has not yet acted for whatever reason.
The fact that the brokers/middleman sites don’t have a contract w/ DVC is no barrier to DVC bringing an action against them for tortious interference of their contracts w/ the owners of the points.
The issue for an owner who just wants to use their points for their own vacations is twofold, cost & availability. Cost is hard to quantify, availability less so. Spec renting ties up availability, it amplifies competition for popular times/villa sizes & views, & it removes inventory from those trying to reserve even if the villa does not get rented & the reservation is moved to other dates, thus arguably violating the ‘first come, first served’ model set forth in the POS.
I doubt it will ever happen, but DVC could limit the ability to change the lead guest - which is the bread & butter of the spec rental business, but rarely done by folks booking personal vacations & they could limit the number of modifications that can be made to a reservation thus curtailing a spec renters ability to move a reservation forward if unrented & to substitute in expiring points.

 

[Chuck S]

Looking at the resorts you own, I can see why the situation doesn't resonate with you as much as it does with owners such as @keishashadow and myself. Something is always available at Riviera, VGF, and Saratoga as well as OKW at 7 months for me. The only room that goes faster is the Tower studio, and I've gotten that at 7 months.

Same for @Chuck S - Old Key West will have availability. It's even possible to snag a grand villa at 7 months as they have more of them. Not that expensive and a great layout.

With all due respect to both of you as Moderators, you are not facing the same challenges at the 11 month window as a Boardwalk owner who wants to have a fair chance to book a vacation for their own use at a resort they've owned for decades.


Many of us feel the same as you. BWV has been a sold out resort for a long time. There are always resales at every resort. What stands out is that getting what was normal has changed in the last 3-5 years, when the appeal of a great location, low point charts and moderate dues became obvious to those that want to make money by renting as opposed to vacationing. With a night as low as 9 points per night and dues of approx $8.67 per point, it's pretty difficult to lose. It's not even speculation. It's a sure thing. The next step is getting the rooms, that's where the bots come in.

In 20 years or less, Riviera will be the 'bargain' with access to two parks. BWV will be in the process of being resold, and it won't be cheap the next time around. The points charts will probably be doubled. Another possibility is that the hotel side become villas as well.

But at the same time, just a couple of months ago, everyone was blaming walking. Now they are blaming renters. When in reality, lack of availability is a combination of many things, It used to be many parents had no issues pulling their children out of school for a week to travel. Now the school threatens parents with truancy, shifting that demand to school holidays like Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter, there is a larger number of small contracts than there were several years ago thanks to the resale market thus increasing the competition for standard/value studios, Disney cash hotel prices increased sharply, increasing the demand for DVC Rentals, more and more people are walking popular room types thus squeezing out member that basically don't have enough points to do so. and all of those factors will likely continue to get worse.

Again, a complicated mix of factors, and I'm just not convinced that "Commercial Renting" or brokerage sites is the single most responsible culprit, but it is certainly a contributing factor. We've seen an increase even on our small rental board of members wanting to rent out existing reservatons. Not that long ago, it was basically all point rentals, not existing reservations. And do you really think everyone buying those prime fixed week contracts were doing so for their own usage? I'm sure there is a good percentage of those reservations out there for rent, too, judging from the push back we received for not allowing 7 night full week rentals starting on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday to be offered. That is taking up to 35% of units away from availabilty at newer resorts during high demand vacation times.