DAS changes coming WDW May 20/ DL June 18, 2024

[nalababybear]

Agreed 100%.. it’s astounding how some disabilities can have the same diagnosis and differ vastly on the different tiggers and needs.

Hence the needs.based accommodation.

Accommodation based on diagnosis just does not make sense and that's is why the ADA law is written that way.

 

[Angel Ariel]

It will cut down on some due to them going to a third party to qualify. It also isn't all about getting rid of abuse but cutting down on the amount of guests using LL.

Inspire health alliance is training CMs, and is available beyond that for some consults. There's no indication that inspire health alliance is overseeing every determination for DAS.

 

[GoingSince1990]

If saying the right words to a CM works, how would saying the right words to a third party not work?

One motivation for bringing in the third party is probably because so many CMs have DAS, and one reason for this when it’s a CM as opposed to a third party making the decision may be that it’s harder for a CM to say “no” to a fellow CM; it’s natural to want your fellow employees to like you. Much easier for someone working for a third party on a video call to be the “bad guy” in this situation.

 

[lanejudy]

One motivation for bringing in the third party is probably because so many CMs have DAS, and one reason for this when it’s a CM as opposed to a third party making the decision may be that it’s harder for a CM to say “no” to a fellow CM; it’s natural to want your fellow employees to like you. Much easier for someone working for a third party on a video call to be the “bad guy” in this situation.

The partnership with the third-party does not have them doing the video chats and approving/not approving DAS. My understanding is Inspire Health Alliance will be providing training to CMs and possibly available for consultation.

 

[starlite_]

Return to Line via Check Points: let’s use a queue with an 80-min standby wait as an example. At the upper end, my tolerance for the queue is 15-20 minutes, so I’ll go with 20 to calculate and for ease let’s assume there actually is a check point every 20 mins. Each time I need to leave the line, I’ll be away 30 mins to accommodate my needs. That makes my total actual wait 170 mins or more - which is not equal to standby at all. I would simply not get into that queue at all and forgo experiencing the attraction.

I think in this particular case, Disney is not counting the time you left to attend to your needs as time you spent in line. Only the time you spend on the physical queue. The accommodation would be to allow you to leave and return.

Not saying this is good or bad, it's simply how I'm interpreting it.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

a NT toddler having a hard time in line is NOT the same thing as a child with a DD having a meltdown. I can't decide if I want to me angry or if I want to laugh at the comparison.

There's a saying that's something like "if you've met one person with autism, you've met ONE person with autism"...meaning every single person is vastly different. If something worked great for your nephew, that's fantastic. But that doesn't mean it's going to work for every autistic person, or even ANY other autistic person.

I think it might be worth understanding how very conflicting these two statements are in multiple ways.

On one level you are assuming things about children who do not have a neurodivergence in an environment like Disney, on another level you are assuming that the child with the neurodivergence has a worse reaction than one who does not and on another level you say you recognize that every single person is vastly different but don't apply that to two children with neurodivergence never mind applying that too a child who does and a child who doesn't.

This is one of the reasons why people are going to continue to push back against some of these comments. We need to recognize that we really can't assume the behaviors of any one individuals (child, adult, neurodivergent or not, etc)

 

[DFelt1]

The partnership with the third-party does not have them doing the video chats and approving/not approving DAS. My understanding is Inspire Health Alliance will be providing training to CMs and possibly available for consultation.

This is what I thought as well, based on the original reporting. However, The Disney Dish transcript that was posted earlier seems to indicate otherwise, and Len had good sources:

Disney says it's returning back to the program's original target population, which is those with developmental disabilities that prevent them from waiting in line. They're moving to a third-party verification company. We'll do live video chats with you to determine the appropriate accommodation for your need.
The interesting thing there is, Disney said that you could be able to schedule those up to 120 days in advance, which is double the 60 now, and the new program is good for 120 days, which is also double the current length. The other interesting thing is, if you show up at the parks, you will not be speaking to guest relations about that. Instead, you'll be directed to a small room, apparently near guest relations, to have that video chat with the same company.

The first bolded part could be interpreted in different ways. Third-party company is just verification, but the chat is with a Disney CM? But the second bolded part is more explicit - you'll have the chat with the company.

But he also says you can schedule the call 120 days in advance, which Disney's website clearly disagrees with, so I dunno...

If nothing, this highlights that Disney has been poor in releasing clear, useful info.

 

[nalababybear]

Disney likely has the data to compare how long DAS users spend in a park on average with non-DAS users, as well as how many rides they do in a day vs non-DAS users. As far as I know, that info is not available to the public so no one can really make an accurate guess.

Should that mean though that if hypothetically the non-DAS users spend an average of 9 hours in MK and ride 9 rides on average, that DAS users that hypothetically spend 6 hours in MK on average should also be able to ride 9 rides during those 6 hours to make it a comparable experience? It could be Disney looks at their data that way in trying to make experiences equitable for DAS users, but it's definitely not required legally or is it practical in most situations to think that anyone, disabled or not, will/should be able to do more in less time. So again, maybe I'm misunderstanding the relevance of how long someone is able to spend in a park.

Simply that time in park is one of many factors that Disney can and probably uses to determine if some positive movement toward equity is met. It is certainly not a singular metric. It is one of many I'd certainly use to measure usage vs time.

 

[notatallmagic]

As someone who has used DAS for several years, I would be fine with Disney tracking if I went on more rides per day compared to non-DAS users, and applying greater scrutiny accordingly (but perhaps easy for me to say as I know we don’t even come close)

The biggest issue I see with this method is that for almost every legitimate DAS using family, I believe most of us approach our visits with a very different strategy - we NEED to plan. Without meticulous planning, we cannot navigate a Disney day.

Each of our park days is planned so carefully to allow a DAS tap in; then likely a short, shaded, seated ride/show (train, Living with the Land, PhilharMagic, short films...etc); food/drink/bathroom; ride a ride...and then repeat. We use the short rides for shade, cool, and seating. Our script is almost identical every single time we visit each park, because we've figured out what works (we're Annual Passholders).

So, we may (on a good day) accomplish more "rides" than a family that wanders up to the gate, doesnt know the park layout, and wings it, and criss-crosses the park multiple times (we never, ever do that). Our researched and tested method is like a Touring Plan Ultra. So maybe that type of comparison is apples to oranges.

It's also relevant that on a "bad" day, we just don't go to the parks at all. So in our case, you'd need to average in the "zero" attraction days.

 

[Philsfan77]

We’re at 141 pages and not a single theory how this change is going to cut down on abuse by those faking. We mostly all accept abuse is the catalyst for this change, so where’s the fix for that?

I was on page 138 and was just about to type something similar, but wanted to get to the end before writing anything.

What I like about the change, is Disney trying to move away from a one size fits all model. That in and of itself is a step in the right direction, because disability services should never be one size fits all. Whether they can execute it or not, remains to be seen, but no matter what they do to try and alter the system, people will be upset because they are already accustomed to the current system. No one likes change, even if it could potentially make sense.

The one thing that seems to be close to unanimous in this thread (and you hit on it in your post) is the belief that the current system is broken/being abused. The idea that they should do nothing, because we don't think this roll out will cut abuse doesn't make a ton of sense to me. It wouldn't surprise me that if over time the system continues to be revamped, which is honestly how changes should be implemented. Going from 0 to 100 doesn't typically work, and often times isn't necessary. However, if they are going from 0 to 20 right now, and take this period to collect more data and determine that it's not enough, now they can go from 20 to 50, and collect more data and go from 50 to 100 if need be. However, all they might need to do right now is go from 0 to 20 to help...we simply won't know until the initial changes to the system are finally put into place.

Some things that are a step in the right direction - eliminating pre-selects, reducing the size of the party in the queue (assuming they actually implement this as it's designed/reported), going to a more needs based approach (as someone else mentioned, if they encounter a guest who says something like they can't be in direct sunlight for extended periods of time as an example, removing the ability to use DAS for indoor queues, or after a certain time of day will help versus that person just having access all day for every ride). Return to line passes, versus an outright DAS for everything, rider swap.

Now will it cut down on the liars/fakers/cheats/abusers, all of this remains to be seen. I think just announcing a change like this, will give some people pause, but it certainly won't stop everyone or shut abuse down completely. Reality is, there is no system that will shut abuse down completely.

 

[lanejudy]

This is what I thought as well, based on the original reporting. However, The Disney Dish transcript that was posted earlier seems to indicate otherwise, and Len had good sources:


The first bolded part could be interpreted in different ways. Third-party company is just verification, but the chat is with a Disney CM? But the second bolded part is more explicit - you'll have the chat with the company.

But he also says you can schedule the call 120 days in advance, which Disney's website clearly disagrees with, so I dunno...

If nothing, this highlights that Disney has been poor in releasing clear, useful info.

While he is usually a very reliable source, I do find some inaccurate info in that transcript (I did not listen) and he doesn't typically weigh in on DAS/disabilities. So while I think he was trying to explain what was known at the time, it didn't quite hit the mark and/or included some assumptions that are not clarified yet.

The WDW website continues to state the video chat will be with a "Cast Member." Further, I find no reference to Inspire or a 3rd party on the WDW website. I know it was in the initial announcements last week, but unless I've missed it, it's not on the website.

 

[nalababybear]

I think it might be worth understanding how very conflicting these two statements are in multiple ways.

On one level you are assuming things about children who do not have a neurodivergence in an environment like Disney, on another level you are assuming that the child with the neurodivergence has a worse reaction than one who does not and on another level you say you recognize that every single person is vastly different but don't apply that to two children with neurodivergence never mind applying that too a child who does and a child who doesn't.

This is one of the reasons why people are going to continue to push back against some of these comments. We need to recognize that we really can't assume the behaviors of any one individuals (child, adult, neurodivergent or not, etc)

Best to explain as two different games being played.

Typical kids is like playing checkers. There's different levels and ways to play checkers. At the end of the day, it's checkers.

Then there chess.

Neurological kids span the variety of checkers. A very complex checkers player is very real. The rules are a lot more straightforward though so keeping the player within the guardrails and strategy to manage is similar matched.

ASD is chess, with all of its complexity and nuances .

It's a simplified analogy but it works for us to portray the differences with our two kids and other families dealing with both nt and ND kids

 

[lowlight]

From a lot of what is said the main point of these changes is go back to how it used to be in regards to the DAS system. There is a lot of guests who don't necessarily need it that can physically wait in lines but got DAS as it made the day easier

This right here is the crux of the problem. They are altering the program and hurting legitimate users while the fakers will continue to fake. A perfect example is my sister in law whose child had DAS for ADHD when he was younger, but no longer needs it. She still uses it now that he’s an adult when they go to the parks. I think because it’s a “real diagnosis” she doesn’t feel guilty for doing it and knows the words to use in the interview so she gets it. He would still qualify under the new system and has zero need for it.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Best to explain as two different games being played.

Typical kids is like playing checkers. There's different levels and ways to play checkers. At the end of the day, it's checkers.

Then there chess.

Neurological kids span the variety of checkers. A very complex checkers player is very real. The rules are a lot more straightforward though so keeping the player within the guardrails and strategy to manage is similar matched.

ASD is chess, with all of its complexity and nuances .

It's a simplified analogy but it works for us to portray the differences with our two kids and other families dealing with both nt and ND kids

I have 5 individuals between my husband's family and mine 4 with autism on a scale from non-verbal completely to functioning quite well plus a cognitive disorder with anxiety. And if you think their reactions are automatically worse than the individuals in my family who are not neurodivergent or have a cognitive disorder never mind the reactions between the 5 of them whew you'd be assuming so badly wrong. Because they are not all the same even with a developmental disability.

We're talking about behaviors here and that's way different than talking about processing information and conceptually understanding something on a developmentally appropriate level. And we're talking about an environment like Disney.

Two 5 year olds one neurodivergent and one not may conceptually understand and process the inability to ride an attraction at that particular time differently for example. It does not mean their behaviors are going be worse/better than each other. People can speak personally about their own children but when you apply that others (be it neurodivergent or not) it changes the conversation completely, at that moment you are doing the very thing you (general you) get frustrated about.

And TBH I really don't think you are helping not using bias by explaining it in terms of checkers and chess.

 

[Philsfan77]

This right here is the crux of the problem. They are altering the program and hurting legitimate users while the fakers will continue to fake. A perfect example is my sister in law whose child had DAS for ADHD when he was younger, but no longer needs it. She still uses it now that he’s an adult when they go to the parks. I think because it’s a “real diagnosis” she doesn’t feel guilty for doing it and knows the words to use in the interview so she gets it. He would still qualify under the new system and has zero need for it.

I would wager a good sum of money that this is the greatest type of abuse the system sees and unfortunately going to a third party system that is looking more for the diagnosis than the need, won't prevent this type of abuse either, as they will have the paperwork to back up their "claims." I don't have a solution to stop that type of abuse, and I don't think anyone does.

 

[lanejudy]

A perfect example is my sister in law whose child had DAS for ADHD when he was younger, but no longer needs it. She still uses it now that he’s an adult when they go to the parks. I think because it’s a “real diagnosis” she doesn’t feel guilty for doing it and knows the words to use in the interview so she gets it. He would still qualify under the new system and has zero need for it.

There will always be fakers or cheaters. That's life and unfortunately there's very little anybody can do to completely eliminate it. What could Disney implement to offset the situation you noted? Pretty much nothing, so yes she will continue to cheat. However Disney is taking steps to make accommodations less desirable to those who think it's a free FP system and to more closely tailor accommodations to the need rather than the blanket 1-size-fits-all accommodation of DAS.

 

[nalababybear]

I have....

And TBH I really don't think you are helping not using bias by explaining it in terms of checkers and chess.

Different strokes for different folks. It works for our families with both NT and ND kids in explaining the differences and complexities of both worlds that we straddle.

 

[TCRAIG]

We’re at 141 pages and not a single theory how this change is going to cut down on abuse by those faking. We mostly all accept abuse is the catalyst for this change, so where’s the fix for that?

Well - IF (as it’s been suggested) a large group of the DAS fakers were claiming IBS/UC as their need - and those conditions will no longer be eligible for the DAS program but rather by an alternative process (as it’s also been theorized in these 141 pages based on Disney’s confusing statements) - I think there’s an answer right there….

 

[GoingSince1990]

This right here is the crux of the problem. They are altering the program and hurting legitimate users while the fakers will continue to fake. A perfect example is my sister in law whose child had DAS for ADHD when he was younger, but no longer needs it. She still uses it now that he’s an adult when they go to the parks. I think because it’s a “real diagnosis” she doesn’t feel guilty for doing it and knows the words to use in the interview so she gets it. He would still qualify under the new system and has zero need for it.

I would be very surprised if ADHD is addressed the same way under the new system. For one thing, plenty of pushy parents badger doctors into writing ADHD diagnoses for their kids so they are allowed more time to do tests like SATs, and this should not automatically lead to DAS being granted. And even under the existing system there have been reports of DAS being refused for ADHD (screenshot attached is from April 2023).

https://www.disboards.com/threads/did-the-rules-for-das-change-recently.3915847/

 

[nalababybear]

I would be very surprised if ADHD is addressed the same way under the new system. For one thing, plenty of pushy parents badger doctors into writing ADHD diagnoses for their kids so they are allowed more time to do tests like SATs, and this should not automatically lead to DAS being granted. And even under the existing system there have been reports of DAS being refused for ADHD (screenshot attached is from April 2023).

Under the new rules and already partial explanation of Ride Swap; RS would probably be the accommodation offered in this case is my GUESS. We just don't know.

Disney clearly uncorked a large issue by trying to pivot back to multi-layered accommodations. They certainly won't get it 100% right day 1. They don't right now even with DAS in current form. They are trying.